Article about Alerta in TAL-Fanzine... (Ultras Hapoel also mentioned...)
It starts on Side 4

http://www.talfanzine.com/-%20New%20Folder/talezine1.pdf

Typical football fans, always see the decisions that go against them and totally ignore the ones that go for them. I'm sure none of the sensible Celtic fans on here buy into this paranoia driven belief that the whole of Scotland referees are plotting against them, you only have to look at the decisions that have gone their way to see that there is no one sided bias

Really upseting and undermining article with more than a few wrongs and intended propaganda ! The person behind the article clearly knows nothing about alerta! nor the groups in the network, and only chooses to focus on three groups, yet again not accurately and full of mistakes and propaganda.

Talking about an antifascist network and trying to present it as a non-real politically orientated project with no cause, especially knowing nothing about the network is rediculous and appauling !

To take things from the beginning... First of all, a clear propaganda is made stating that groups of the alerta! network are non-political and the author also mentions Bohemians 1905 as an example. Since i am a bit to naive, how did this person get the idea that Bohemians are even members of the network ?? They have no absolute relation to the network besides some discussions concerning them !! Secondly, the author says that the UI96 are also an apolitical group !! How the fuck do you sell such propaganda when you have no absolute idea about the subject. Ultras Inferno are openly and militantly antifascist and have also taken official stands against fascism both on the terraces and on the streets !!

The critics on the USP are also really disturbing...The person who wrote this clearly knows nothing about the USP and just focuses on some material from the internet and biased sources ! USP are probably the strongest antifascist group in europe at the moment but the author of this crap presents them as a group with no ideals and political orientations. What he does not get is that he is talking about an ultras group and not a political organization of a determined ideology. USP represent people from all layers of society and of all RADICAL ideologies, and embrace all into a common stand of militant antifascism ! As all groups of alerta! we have a mixed set of fans, some are communist, some anarchists and some strictly and only antifascists therefore our network is antifa and antira so it can embrace all ideologies under a common umbrella, our stand against racial prejudice and fascism.

Furthermore, the anti-semit element in the writtings of this crap is really apparent. The author, once again throws some really bad propaganda about our brothers the UH99 ... Some really rediculous claims there which really disturb some people who happen to know a bit more than the ''writer'' of this article...Talking about a group that experiences war in its daily routine, while comfortably sitting behind your pc is the least disgusting, especially when you have no absolute knowledge about the group what so ever !

The UH have in many cases supported the struggle of the palestinian people, and have made a lot of humanitarian action to bring both communities into a harmonic way of life. The UH along with the club have football academies embracing both isrealy and palestinians and teaches them to live together in peace. The UH have helped arabs who where beiing treated with racism in Israel to finding shelter, food, clothing, and forming a respectable group to fight for their wrights within the israely nation. Furthermore, the UH live in an un-democratic regime where the nationalist element is on a great upheaval, but are still fighting to the point they are even looked down upon as traitors in their own country. What shocks me the most is the naivity of the person behind the article. He seems to think that antifascism is restricted in some banners, and nice looking words, it is clear he has never even taken a real stance against fascim with real danger to himself. Fighting for a certain cause has a lot more to it than nice words and several banners and who is he to judge when he is living in the most under surveillance society of the world, and passively accepts that without taking any stance. It is a fact that scotland and england are both the most controlled societies in Europe, and the oppresion of the state has minimal if not any opposition by the people !!!

Furthermore this person neglects to mention a lot more groups of the network such as Gate9 for example, probably because it suits his propaganda causes !

Another element that is a clear example of naivety is the way this person presents the whole of the left movement in Germany !! Especially coming from a country which has no absolute strong voice of opposition. The picture of the Bomber Harris banner is not on any stands of USP but on the Dresden anti-demo where some of the alerta! lads whom he mentions with such a manner, travelled to counter demonstrate and block the biggest nazi gathering of europe with danger to their own lives. Germany is a country of many social and political sensitivities, which have been encarved to the Germans from the attrocities of the war their own country began so it is the least disgisting to mention them in such a manner, especially when their ideological culture leads them to take onto the streets and fight against everything they believe is wrong !

Furthermore, the author clearly does not receive the humor behind that banner. No German or any person would want any kind of bombing to endager the lives of their loved ones. The banner was a stance to show and awaken people that it is the least wrong to try to present yourselves as victims of a war started by your own country. Another reason behind the banner is the rediculous claims of the nazis in Germany trying to establish the Dresden bombing as a ''holocaust'' to relieve their guilts from what the nazis did to the Jews. The Dresden bombing SADLY costed the lives of 25 thousand people yet the Nazis try to establish it as a holocaust genocide with over than 300 thousand casualties !!!

Since i was in Dresden for the counter demo against the scum i can pay my huge respects to the German people and especially to the USP for all that i experienced there. We are talking about people who had to deal with 7 thousand police equipped with water canons, and fucking helicopters, but still managed to block the biggest nazi gathering of europe.

I can continue to write about the subject for ages but i have already written more than enough. I will identify more of the crap later on and contradict them but for now this is enough. I just had to get it out dont really care if anyone bothers to read my post or nor

On this particular point, someone from the fanzine came onto this forum last year after Hapoel and Celtic were drawn in the Europa Cup. They asked a set of questions which Asaf Eyal said he would gladly answer and within a couple of days. From what I can make out, for whatever reason, he never fulfilled this promise*. Perhaps if he had, then a better understanding of Ultras Hapoel would be made available to the fanzine.

* apologies if this isn’t the case and they have been answered.

P.S. Nikolas_G9 - as well as on here, why not make your reply directly to the fanzine on their forum?

So what mate ?? Lets say for the sake of argument they did come in here and ask for specific details which they did not get...Does that justify writting an article full of lies and propaganda on a theme they are not really familiar with ?? I would gladly post in on their forum if you gave me a link although after reading this crap i don't feel i could discuss anything with these lads...They clearly wrote an article just for the sake of butchering certain ultras and a network, both things they do not have any direct relation to and hence, don't know accurate and enough info to form an opinion...It is the least rediculous to make an article without having any knowledge on a subject, and especially when people who also don't have a clue will read you and form a false opinion...

Really annoying situation for me, especially when it comes from people who have no direct involvment to our network or the fans they mention...

Well clearly they went out their way to know more about the Ultras Hapoel. As I say, maybe they did get a response to what they asked, but I am picking up that they didn’t. In fact, reading back on the thread where they asked the questions, they even delayed the publishing of the fanzine, where they were going to give Ultras Hapoel a platform, to await the answers!



Surely if they are posting what you consider to be rubbish and you are worried about people reading this and then taking on board that, then you really should be posting your response on there i.e. the other side of the coin?

The link to the forum is:

http://talfanzine.proboards.com/index.cgi

You have to register first obviously.

I've mentioned this before Nikolas and will probably be shot down by the Celtic fans but there really isn't a serious Alerta or anti-facist group in Parkhead, there are no more than a few dozen young lads playing at it. That's fine as their hearts are in the right place but they see it more as an Anti British thing than anything else.

@ Ginzberg Loyal

I do not by any means target the lads of the Green Brigade whom i respect both them, and their work on the terraces and the streets. But i will have to agree with you on a general view of the rest of Celtic support

@ Celtic_Antifa

You still defend the lads who wrote this article and selectivley do not answer on my question. The lack of information does not by any means justify the publishing of a biased piece of information. The UH have the right to give or deny, if the decide, information concerning their group and political beliefs. When you conduct an article concerning so many things you are also responsible towards the people who read you, therefore do not present false information just because you did not receive some from the groups concerned.

Another thing, is that you clearly avoid to say your own opinion on the matter. I would appreciate an open statement concerning your views on the issue. I have already registered to the forum and pending for approval although i do not intend to get into meaningless discussions with people who just aim to butcher certain groups and their politics. I will put my answer in the forum and that is it.

I am defending them in the sense that if they have no knowledge of Ultras Hapoel as you suggest, then they have done their best to gain it. They made it clear that they were going to have an article on Ultras Hapoel and obviously it was therefore in the interests of Ultras Hapoel to answer the questions put to them, which were going to be published without alteration. In that way, the position of Ultras Hapoel would be made clear to the readers. I can’t quite figure what the benefit was to renegade on the promise to give the interview.

I don’t have much to say on the matter as I have little knowledge of the Alerta group other than from what I read on a few websites. There have been problems in the past with Celtic/Irish/Scottish supporters and the USP with regard to their ‘no national flag’ policy. I suspect that when everything is unravelled then this is perhaps the catalyst for the article.

Incidentally, can you speak for the Alerta group? If so, is there a reason why their website has been redundant since August 2009?

comrades
i have allready made my state towards celtic supporters in green brigade forum. i back each and every word of my good friend from gate 9 who wrote in this thread.

what i saw in green brigade forum was a bunch of hippocrates, silly brainwashed kids and "fierce rebels" who fight through computers and banners.
i have no will to argue with such people.
i saw the artice on tal fanzine, and the photo they put there sums it all up. to publish this photo of tanks etc' with uh99 stuff on them, is so stupid, it only made it final for me to understand how ignorant and brainwashed these people are.
i took my time to explain to them what were those photos really about, but they still published them oand wrote lies. are they nothing but journalists? seems to me they might be.
this is very sad.

oh well...
in two words :

FUCK THEM


Celtic_Antifa
the reason i did not answer their questions at the time, was because i got divorced that same week and did not have my mind for that.
i explained this to them and asked for their apology. what did they do? they went and made their own conculusions based on nothing.
how ignorant, how stupid and how childish.

well, i always prefer to take action and leave talking to those kind of people.
let them talk. let them write. let them be "rebels" while we do our job here, for co-existance and understanding in this hard land we live in.

I have Châtelet
What all this now?
I just could not follow behind you.

Nikolas G9, as far as I know, the man who wrote that article was part of the first group of Celtic antifascists who made the contact with Sankt Pauli antifascists over 20 years ago and still maintains contact with members today, so he would have a good idea of how USP operate today. As for their no national flags rubbish, how do they explain having a Russian Soviet Flag then?


Asaf Eyal, you said that you didn't have time to answer Talfanzine's questions due to a divorce, how did you manage to find time to write replies to the GB forum then? Was the GB audience a little more naive and easier to manipulate?
As for the picture of the tank, UH are part of the Alerta group which is against borders and nationalism, yet your group is happy to have it's flags on IDF tanks, The same tanks that enforce and expand borders every day and defenders of Israeli right wing nationalism. Bit hypocritical don't you think?

how dare you talk about my personal life in this way? how rude can you people be?
when i answered in the forum, it was after some time has passed from my divorce, and i could give this issue the attnetion.
it was not possible to do so before.
i am sorry for having a life out of the computer world, i guess you do not understand this.

the audience in that forum was very rough, full of hate and brainwahsed -dont worrie. and i think you were part of them as well.

so i am a munipilator? this is what you see us all as? if so, there is no place for you here. if you are just another european person who dares to judge us and take a side because it is romantic - you are defently not welcomed here. you are harming our true and sincere effort to contribute for a change here.

about the tanks you like so much to talk about...
do you know what was the point of putting those banners on the tanks? do you know who put them and why?
who are you to judge me as hypocrate if you dont even know the most basic thing about this thing?

how shallow can you people be? how narrow minded?
dont pollute my forum with all of this please.

Lies, lies, lies and naive comments only aiming for propaganda. The no nations flag policy of the USP is only on their terrace, the picture you placed there is from the antira in Liege. Fuck sake mate, we spoke on GB forum as well, you seem to have a problem understanding some things as that is the case about the flag on the tank you are mentioning once again. That picture is of a tank decorated by the UH to mock and provoke, something which we said for a hundred of times already.

And ones divorce is none of your bussiness to criticize fucking have some respect for the people you are talking to.

Although not saying a word about my post it is apparent why that article was written. The butchering of the USP had to do with their policy on flags decided on their terrace, but since the ''author'' could not write that directly he made up a bunch of lies to present them as he wanted to.

The attitude on UH, once again, a stance of little kids trying to be rebels behind their computers. No further comments since anyone who knows what the UH are about is only laughing at these claims.

Besides that, no one has said a word on the politics regarding my post, the dissing of the German people, the alerta network and more things i wrote on my post. It is apparent that you selectively avoid answering, or your knowledge is more than little on any of the subjects i mentioned. Surely though, it is the second, it is apparent by that crap written on the fanzine.

Your divorce is none of my business. I mentioned it only because you said it was the reason you didn't answer TAL's questions. There was some valid questions posed to UH for an article which was to be published in Talfanzine, as is the norm for new clubs which come into contact with Celtic's left wing support, when the fanzine tries to give an insight into the supporter's beliefs. Unfortunately, the answers never came. Considering that Talfanzine has a far longer history of fighting fascism & racism than the GB, and as you claim yourself, that the GB forum was full of silly kids, you would have devoted your time to answering the said questions rather than debating with 'silly kids'.
As it was silly kids you were talking with on the GB forum, this is why I asked if it was an easier audience to manipulate rather than have a grown up debate, with 'grown ups'.
I know exactly the meaning of the tank pictures. Do you not see why I find images of a defence force's tanks on your website hypocritical, when you take into account the reputation of the IDF and it's defence of right wing Zionist nationalism?

If USP have such a strong view on 'no nations' and 'no borders', so strong that they ban national flags from their terrace, it's not very consistent if they decide then to have a russian soviet flag on their banner in Liege. What I would certainly call hypocritical, would you?




As for not replying to the rest of your post, I got as far as 'anti semite' and realised where it was going. Why is it when I try to have a civilised discussion, when I was a member of the GB forum and now on here, the replies are extremely defensive? Why do people have to swear and abuse me? You guys get very heated as soon as anyone asks a question of you.

do you consider yourself a "grown up"? i believe you do.
if so, what kind of a grown up argue is the one that you know exactly the meaning of the tank pictures
you know, this is exactly your problem. you are very rude and arrogant. have you been there when the uh99 banners were hunged on the tanks? do you know who did it? do you know the person who did it? did you talk to him and asked him why did he do it?
you are so narrow minded and brainwashed that you will do anything to make an argument, even if it has no basis in reality.
so, what are you? a journalist? a propaganda agent? what do you want from us here?
if you call me and my friends right wing nationalists - i will have to ask you to leave this forum. if you choose to stay - behave yourself and respect the people who are here. if you wont choose to - you will be banned from here, i will be very happy to ban you myself. there is a limit to what i can tolerate in my forum. you are very close to pass this limit.
there is no place for liers here.
there is not place for people with such basic hate towards others, based on religion or ethicity.

you must accept the fact that there are israeli people who want to do a change here and actually fight for it. i know it is hard for you to see this and to make your whole theory of "bad israel-good palestine" go down the toilet, but this is reality.
face it.
you and people like you, only harm our sincere effrot to do something differnet here. i dont want to see your hatered and propaganda here no more.

Firstly sorry to hear about your divorce, I hope things are better for you now.

From what you say above, there appears to be a bit of confusion. The article in debate wasn't published a few days or weeks after the questions were asked, it was only published this week. Over six months had passed from when the questions were asked and from when the article was published. Given that, I still can’t quite figure why the promise to give the interview wasn't fulfilled.

i apologized and told them i needed more time in order to go forward and answer those questions.
after that, contact was not established again, and i forgot about it, i believe they had forgotten about it as well.
you must understand, i have many duties here, taking action and not talking, and this interview is only one among many i was asked to give in the past 5 years since red workers was created.
so, i missed one interview. it happened and i can only be sorry i forgot about it because time has passed and i went on with my life, which is very very busy.
if only they had reminded me and sent those questions again, i would do it gladly, as i did for many other fanzines and newspapers all over europe.
anyway, now it is too late, and, anyway, the total brainwash that is ruling those people minds is terrible. i am sorry to say that i believe that even if i would answer this article, probably nothing would have changed.

this is very disturbing and very sad.

Well I don't know, I suspect that if you answered the questions, they would be published similar to the questions asked to USP being published despite being a different level on some issues. I would suggest that the best course of action is to find out if this would be the case therefore allowing for the Ultras Hapoel side of the story, as it were, to be put forward.

Incidentally, I presume you the spokesperson for Ultras Hapoel? Perhaps you could draft in a few other people to help you out especially in instances such as this when circumstances - workload etc - prevent you from responding.

Anyway, we have a game today - away to Kilmarnock in the Scottish Cup. Sadly our only realistic chance of silverware this season.

While I have limited knowledge about various groups discussed in the article, I suspect I have more knowledge then most regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Accordingly I will concentrate on that. 

Hamas was not elected in Gaza. It took it over by force and against the will of their people. Moreover in the 2005 elections, their representatives won by slim margins because fatah has very inefficiently ran 2-4 candidates against each one if Hamas, thereby splitting their votes. Percentage wise if you count the number of Palestinians that voted for Hamas vs. Fatah - fatah won by a substential margin. So your assumptions are wrong to begin with.

That said I don't disagree that the Israeli government at the time should have recognized Hamas, but where you are wrong is for the reason for this short-sighted-ness.

The last thing that israel wants is a rift within the Palestinian people. It has been entrenching for israel in terms of security, impossible to deal with politically, and made every possible solution ten times harder to discuss. For israel right now entering negotiations as it did with fatah is a risky endeavor because even if it signs a two-state solution agreement it has gaza and Hamas as a thorn. 

All that said my friends, you must understand that while there are valid points to be made against israel's behavior (and i am happy to admit and criticize my oen country as MANY israelis fo) your attacks are so grossly misdirected! Ultras Hapoel are one of the most active groups in the struggle to keep israel from becoming a rouge state. By and large - and you can see this from many threads in this forum - They are those who strongly object the extremist and uncompromising rightist views. 

Finally, let's get over the interview with Asaf issue - it happens, and your concentration on that is unproductive. Asaf is anything but a hypocrite, but one of the most straight forward and direct voices you will ever come across. Moreover painting him, or the majority of us here, as a rightwing advocates is simply incorrect and not based in reality, so arguing over it makes no sense.

I think one of the problems people in Britain have in understanding everything that is going on in the Israel v Palestine conflict is the that the way it's reported in this country. The News reports in the past tended to focus from the Israeli point of view, that may have been in line with the Governments own stance on the conflict but the press have now started to show a lot more from the Palestinian side of things and more importantly to my mind they are showing the shocking effects it's having on the innocent Palestinians.

As I said we were basically conditioned to think of Israel of fighting off the terrorist loving Palestinians but there seems to be a more balanced view on it all now.

I assume this conversation is being lost in translation, I am not being rude or arrogant about the tank pictures, I am simply stating that I know what they mean, as your friend Nikolas said, it was explained to me before on the GB forum. That's how I know what they mean. My issue with the tank pictures was that a group such as UH who claim to be progressive antifascists and antiracists, would use IDF tanks to hang their banners on. IDF tanks have a very clear symbol around the world as the muscle that enforces right wing governments and the ideals of apartheid regime. This is obviously not the case in Israel. I am neither a journalist or propaganda agent, nor do I call you and your friends right wing nationalists, but also I'd like to point out that I am certainly not narrow minded or brainwashed. I have no hatred for you based on ethnicity or religion so please put that old chestnut back in a box where it belongs. I am merely asking questions about UH' political beliefs, yet everytime I do, I get hit with a wall of anger and claims of being an anti semite.
If you had answered the questions sent to you, then we might be able to have a good idea where you stand on the issues raised, but you didn't answer them and I fear you never will because you probably don't have answers that would leave you with any credibilty.
If you feel the need to ban me, then that is entirely your choice. Is it possible that you would consider reviewing the questions and give frank and honest answers, as I feel you would be doing a dis-service to UH if you didn't answer the questions and put beyond doubt the group's or even your own, political beliefs.

If you have little knowledge of the groups, why do you feel the need to comment? I know full well what happened in the elections and don't need a history lesson, thanks.

I think the world's media is beginning to get fed up of protecting Israel's interests in their news reports only for Israel to operate with even more impunity the next time. Israel is showing reckless contempt and now the media more inclined to present the facts rather than the careful words of the Israeli PR machine. Well said Ginzberg.